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This Was THE Event in The Week That Was

 
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Rocke



Joined: 08 May 2008
Posts: 3279


Location: Abertillery

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:09 pm    Post subject: This Was THE Event in The Week That Was  Reply with quote

Apologies for this being late - technical difficulties on Sunday - I lost the whole article while submitting it - have caused it.

Anyway, second time lucky....


So, Weds morning and the troops on 'both sides' are massed.
There's an air of expectancy, along with the Public Gallery being better dubbed The Fold, given how many of the flock have been shepherded in, including the Mid and West Wales AM ( more of him later ).

The normal pleasantries out of the way ( including the now-mandatory welcoming back of Cllr Dally ! ) it's down to business.

The Auditor's Report is presented but the main item is actually the Council's Response to it, written by our 3 highest officers.

Perhaps at this point I should explain about protocol and how meetings are conducted.

The Leader leads on and proposes recommendation(s) of a report.
The Leader of the Opposition responds, in effect setting out the Opposition case.
Members then join in the debate.
Eventually we come to the summing up, when the Opposition sums up its case and argument(s) and finally The Leader does his summing up and then a vote is taken.

It doesn't have to be the leaders but obviously it would be a bit strange if eg. 2 novice councillors were leading a debate in Council.

So, Cllr Hillman makes his opening remarks and there's little, if any, antagonism from the Labour Group.
We then find out that Cllr Steve Thomas, Deputy Leader of the Labour Group is taking the lead on this. Very strange ?
Not really in my view.
Cllr Thomas has a good degree of political skills ( and in this respect I mean the art of it, not the usual bollitics that seem to abound ). It soon becomes clear that Labour has a highly organised strategy.

Which is 'let Steve do all - or most of - the talking'.

The initial jousting concerns comments made by Cllr Hillman regarding the alleged heart attack and the effect it had on the way people voted. Labour maintains that it was swayed by it, they didn't want to appear uncaring and therefore altered their view from opposition to the departure of the Director concerned to being supportive.

Cllr Thomas made reference to 'the magnificient 7' ( see what I mean about politics and persuasiveness ? ), the 7 Independents who during interviews with the Auditor had stated that they were informed of a previous episode of bad health ( you know what I mean, but since everyone agrees he'd didn't have one, I can't put that in here ) and it did have a material effect on their views and eventual vote.

Cllr Abbott made a point that something that wasn't truthful wasn't necessarily a lie, which brought a little mirth. However, he managed to get out that a lie is deliberately done, and this instance wasn't malicious.

Nevertheless the point kept getting rammed home - only the Leader can't remember where he heard about the 'heart attack' ( might as well say it now, I suppose ).

We've now moved to a discussion on when is a 'lie' not a lie but there's this constant reference to the magnificient 7 by Cllr Thomas, a good and upfront method of trying to break 'party lines'.

Cllr Collier got dragged into it.
We had the unconventional ( and against the rules ) act of Cllr Thomas directly asking Cllr Collier who had told him and what was said.
Cllr Collier refused to be placed out on his own, and of course shouldn't have been anyway.  

I think it's time to get involved here and my turn comes after Cllr Abbott's semi-complaint about the fact that Cllr Thomas' constant references to 'the seven' implies that none of the rest did the decent thing, yet he wasn't present, so couldn't avail the Auditor of any help anyway. The record needed to be put straight.

An excellent piece of timing by the Mayor, Cllr Thomas.
'Councillor Rocke please '.

'Thankyou Mayor.
I won't echo the words of my colleague, I'll amplify them instead.
I wasn't at the group meeting where this information allegedly surfaced and as fate would have it I wasn't at the Council Meeting either.
Further I have actively ensured that I have no involvement in any meeting where this has been discussed, in order to ensure that I approach it with a clear and open mind.'

'I spent time reading the report and after an hour I came up with a single sentence to sum it up.

No wrong has been done, but precious little - if anything, was done as right as it should.

No wrong means no need for punishment.
However, it's clear that we need to do a lot of work on overhauling the policy and processes that have caused this. That have failed to act as a failsafe.'

'Sack them all. Sack everyone involved in this. It will still happen again as long as we haven't brought these systems up to scratch'.

'We need to ensure we get it right and to be able to demonstrate that'.

The debate then moves on to what needs to be done, what hand officers had and will have.

Inevitably it comes back to misinforming and lying, this time more about everyone's in agreement that 'heart attack' was used, it was incorrect but was it knowingly incorrect information deliberately reported or incorrect information ill-advisedly reported without verification.
( My words, of course ).    
       
I enter again.
'Thank you Mayor.
We've heard much talk of lies and misinformation.
Earlier Cllr Thomas mentioned that Cllr Hillman had been Leader since 2007, when we all know the elections happened in 2008.
Was that a lie ? I don't think anyone in this chamber would say it was. It was a slip of the tongue.
The Leader said earlier "you Mayor adjourned the meeting to allow the Labour Group to deliberate", when of course Cllr Williams was Mayor, not you.
I don't think anyone here would say that was a lie either.
We could of course say they should have exercised caution and ensured they were saying the right thing.
That's one of the points of this debate but I'd again point out that we need to make sure this can't happen again'.

As the debate starts to wind up Cllr Thomas makes an announcement that the Labour Group will be asking for a Vote of No Confidence in the Leader, and will not be looking at the Chief Executive as well, contrary to innuendo and reports in the press.

Cllr Daniels expresses his view that votes of no confidence are not the way to do things, then piles the pressure on by stating there are honourable ways to go about things and he'd like to think that if this had happened in his day there'd have been resignations months ago.

Anyway, the vote is asked for and Cllr McCarthy does his usual 'recorded vote please'. This, to me, ( and I've seen it many times ) is an attempt to place Members under pressure. Well, I for one are there to stand up and be counted and to explain my actions to my constituents, so it doesn't wash with me.
Vote taken - 13 ( entire Labour attendees ) in favour, 18 against with 1 abstention.

A few disgruntled murmurs from the gallery, Labour Group muttering 'they're whipped' and nothing much else.

Right then, that's it.
The stormy waters safely sailed, now it's just a matter of moving the report's recommendations and we can all have dinner.

WRONG !
The Leader's summing up is to come. Just as with a court of law this has to summarise, stay on topic and not enter any new issues.
So he launches into an attack on Labour's record, hnow things have bee done in the past etc.

Cue mayhem.
The silent - sorry silenced - majority of Labour councillors spring to their feet, indignant at this and points of order abound.
Eventually calm comes.
The Leader continues summing up - most regrettabley in the same vein.
And with the same result.
This time we have the unseemly sight of the AM for somewhere west of Blaenau Gwent ( salary around £60K ? ) waving a placard and encouraging others to do likewise.

Calm again, the Leader finishes off. Report moved. Sorted. Dinner time.

You can guess the conversations in the Canteen.
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Rocke



Joined: 08 May 2008
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Location: Abertillery

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EPILOGUE.

* Only 32 Councillors of 42 present, on an issue of such importance.
* Only around 12 actually asked to speak.
* Labour climbdown after Unison kicked up.
* Labour led by Deputy Leader.
* Ill-judged inflammatory summing up.

Now you know why I say 'bollitics'.
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Eddie legge



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:03 pm    Post subject: What is a lie Reply with quote

For the attention of Cllr Dave Rocke
What is a lie
For example a declarative statement about some issue
told as fact, but not actually KNOWN as fact by the speaker
whether or not it is factually accurate
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Rocke



Joined: 08 May 2008
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Location: Abertillery

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:20 am    Post subject: Re: What is a lie Reply with quote

Eddie legge wrote:
For the attention of Cllr Dave Rocke
What is a lie
For example a declarative statement about some issue
told as fact, but not actually KNOWN as fact by the speaker
whether or not it is factually accurate


Try this one then Eddie.

A lie is a declarative statement told as fact but known not to be so.

I think my version far better sums up a lie.

However, yours far better sums up what happened in this case.
Misjudgment. Significant misjudgment.

'I don't know if it's right or not, I won't verify it because I trust the source so I'll propagate it'.
And in the public eye as well.

I'm not into the sneakiness of bollitics so I'll be upfront here.

I could ask you now if you agreed with that statement.
And if you - or anyone - said 'yes' then I'd say 'so Cllr McCarthy is guilty of the same thing then ?'

And to be fair about this there were 27 members voting that day.
And they all:

* never knew if it was right or not
* never said 'we need this checked out' - despite that only taking minutes - long enough for someone to turf out absence reports and say 'there is/is not evidence'; and
* propagated it by voting 'yes' and thereby setting off the chain of events that have led to this.

I've just remembered one very pertinent thing, said by Cllr Daniels.
He said 'Lord forbid, of course, but if one of our Chief Officeers suffered a heart attack now we'd all remember it in a couple of years time ( or words to that effect ).
He carried on along the lines of 'I can't believe that no-one could remember'.
I'm not sure how it ended up but I know I picked up on it and went from the opposite angle, something like 'I can't understand why no-one said 'I don't remember that''.

Anyway, you get the idea.

Some of those 27 weren't about in 2006, but enough - including Cllr McCarthy who seemed to be leading the PR assault - were.

It's the Emperor's New Clothes Eddie.
No-one dared disagree for fear of being seen as out of touch.

Unfortunately there isn't the simple wisdom of a child in that Chamber to bring things back into perspective, so wrapped up are we ( all ) in either politics, bollitics or crusading against it in such a way that we're dragged in ourselves.
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martyn142



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
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Location: six bells, abertillery

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: What is a lie Reply with quote

Eddie legge wrote:
For the attention of Cllr Dave Rocke
What is a lie
For example a declarative statement about some issue
told as fact, but not actually KNOWN as fact by the speaker
whether or not it is factually accurate


Does that mean you lied about BG having the highest burial costs in Wales then Eddie? You quoted the figures as fact when they weren't after all.  Embarassed
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Dai 6



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 210



PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: What is a lie Reply with quote

martyn142 wrote:
Eddie legge wrote:
For the attention of Cllr Dave Rocke
What is a lie
For example a declarative statement about some issue
told as fact, but not actually KNOWN as fact by the speaker
whether or not it is factually accurate


Does that mean you lied about BG having the highest burial costs in Wales then Eddie? You quoted the figures as fact when they weren't after all.  Embarassed



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Eddie legge



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:51 pm    Post subject: Has Emperor died Reply with quote

Yes Dave Rocke
Who said the Emperor died
It was the man who lied
He looks ok to me
Why can't we let it be?
We are not in this alone
It is now in every home
What if they cannot see?
More stupid then than thee
I didn't ask for that
Just wait you'll have it back

Eddie Legge
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martyn142



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Location: six bells, abertillery

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No idea what that lot means. Anyone?
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Carolyn



Joined: 11 Mar 2006
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Location: Abertillery

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't even bother to try, when his notification e mails pop in my mail box I just delete them  Laughing
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Huw Mills



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like something by Samuel Taylor Coleridge - 'Kubla-Khan' perhaps???

But as his wife said: "Oh! when will he ever give his friends anything but pain? He has been so unwise as to publish his fragments of 'Kubla-Khan' ... we were all sadly vexed when we read the advertisement of these things."  Rolling Eyes
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Carolyn



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With respect if it's rhyme or riddle if it makes no sense then it's no contribution
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Huw Mills



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Carolyn, short of entirely dismissing Eddie's post, what's your interpretation? ...  Rolling Eyes
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Dai 6



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time to get a medication review?
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Ian Jones



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: What is a lie Reply with quote

Eddie legge wrote:
For the attention of Cllr Dave Rocke
What is a lie
For example a declarative statement about some issue
told as fact, but not actually KNOWN as fact by the speaker
whether or not it is factually accurate


Yes indeed a liar needs a good memory, here's another pearl of wisdom from he who knows all.


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